I guess it depends what sector you're in, because I know of certain things that stay broken in hospitals because contractors will name their (inflated) price knowing it's on the taxpayer's dime. In which case, the govt (or the Canadian taxpayer) is paying a hell of a lot more than they should for said service.

I don't have to have worked for the govt to be disgusted with the lack of accountability in regard to their spending...on a national scale, not just in the governmental workplace!

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Health Care is a Provincial power. Once individual hospitals have their budget approved by the Provincial Government, it is spent at the discretion of the hospital executive and the hospital Board of Directors. This is not a National concern, it is a Provincial concern. If "you know of something" bring it to the attention of your local MLA. Of course from what you are saying it sounds like members of the private sector (could this possibly be you) are attempting to defraud your local hospital.

Vague "facts" such as the one provided are more than likely simply urban myth. No real examples are ever provided. If a company ever attempted to charge any organization more than it charges another, this is called FRAUD. It is illegal and the RCMP would be more than willing to hear about it. Of course you have no proof of what you say but "everyone knows about it" and "nothing can be done about it because everyone is involved". Accountability is the responsibility of everyone. If you have proof, pony up to your local law enforcement office.

For everyone's information, at the Federal Level, Senior Civil Servants are limited in their signing authority. Above a certain level the Minister must approve everything. Contracts above $50000 must go to tender and be open to any person or company in North America that is registered with the MERX system.

As for your example of the "Gas Credit". That was an idea of an elected politician. Any mistakes made during the disbursement of these funds is/was correctable. Do you really think the government did not simply take this money back? By the way, if a cheque was sent to a "dead person", the cheque could not be cashed unless someone was attempting to defraud the Government. Again whose fault is that. (I have to wonder if you tried to cash the cheque made out to a dead relative and are now in prison? This would explain your attitude.) Mistakes are made by everyone, in both the private and public sector. It is when people take advantage of these mistakes that problems arise.

Get off your high horse. Name specific details that were covered by major newspapers or drop it. If you wish to say that both the private and public sectors in Canada could be more efficient, I am more than willing to agree with you. To say that Civil Servants are deliberately mispending the public purse is simply wrong. If you do not like how the Federal and Provincial governments spend the tax payers money, elect a different government, become involved with your local riding associating, help someone get elected you agree with. It is easy to criticize, it is much harder to work for change.

I guess the only facts that exist are printed in newspapers. You are naive if you believe that. I don't intend to prove my beliefs to you using quotes from the National Post. This impression was created as a result of a conversation my friend had directly with a health care worker in Ontario. I can't remember what the broken device was.

You're fooling yourself if you think that people who are contracted to do work for ANYONE in ANY business sector don't give varying quotes for said service.
If I design something for a friend, I don't charge him as much as I would if it was a corporate job. The big company can afford to pay me what I'm worth, my acquaintance may not be able to do so. I can justify doing this because work of a different nature requires one to jump through different hoops. I'm sure it's similar when a contractor has to deal with working for the health care system. And it's probably pretty hard to prove that you're being fleeced --the patron has a right to deny the service if the quote is too high, and use a contractor with a competitive rate. In this case, thay haven't found anyone who isn't greedy. Well, guess what? The people that run this country are just as greedy.

Health care spending is a NATIONAL issue because it's dictated by the Federal government and the Canada Health Act. The nature of our "univeral" system predicates wasteful spending.

I don't appreciate your accusations, which are unfounded. I never said that civil servants are to blame for budgetary discrepancies. I have no doubt, however that incompetence is as rampant in the government as it is in any industry. Expensive mistakes get made, and in this case WE pay for them. The money involved in the Gas Credit is not strictly the number on the cheque. It costs money to process paper, to mail paper, and to pay employees to correct such problems.

It is my right as a member of the free world to ride a "high horse." I don't give a damn if you don't like it, or don't "get it." You call the present electoral system an effective way to create change? I guess I'll write an nice ineffective letter to my MP.

Give me a break,
s4v4nn4

Of course if I would have known that your information came from conservations with a "friend" I would have backed right off. That kind of "source" is unquestionable. How can a paper like the National Post or the Globe & Mail compete when you have sources like your "friend". Just because I want something that can be verified I am "naive"? Facts exist outside of newspapers but the Internet is filled with trash. Provide a link to something, anything that can be verified.

Your example of giving a friend a better price than any level of government demonstrates your complete lack of understanding. Have you ever heard of a sealed bid? How about the MERX system? You can give your "friend" whatever price you want, but unless the issue deals with national security, the lowest priced vendor wins.

As for the Canada Health Act, it outlines specifically what the provinces can and cannot do. It does not tell the provinces how to spend any money as that is not in the Federal domain. It does state what services must be provided. If you think Health Canada has any influence over the budget for the Winnepeg General Hospital (I have no idea if Winnepeg has a hospital by that name) you are mistaken.

As for believing that the Canadian electoral system does not work, you can always emmigrate to another more open, honest country where your hard earned dollars will not be wasted. Or you can do what I suggested and try to change the system from within. You could even go further and run for Federal Public Office. What an easy way to make $133000/year. Look at all these wonderful options you have that could possibly make a difference. Of course it is much easier sitting in the peanut gallery shouting out explitives whenever something happens that you do not agree with (or in your case - understand).

I'm not sure I would want government to have much more accountability. The way the media and uninformed members of the public like to crucify the government and civil service, they would never get anything done, and no one would want the jobs.

Its this obsession with accountability, and fear of it that has governments spending thousands of dollars on studies just to prove they were right, because if they don't someone is going to be screaming for their head when they make a mistake.

We spend so much time attacking the government, is it any wonder they are so inefficient? Its quite ironic when you think about it.

Originally posted by Unregistered Of course if I would have known that your information came from conservations with a "friend" I would have backed right off. That kind of "source" is unquestionable. How can a paper like the National Post or the Globe & Mail compete when you have sources like your "friend". Just because I want something that can be verified I am "naive"? Facts exist outside of newspapers but the Internet is filled with trash. Provide a link to something, anything that can be verified. Your example of giving a friend a better price than any level of government demonstrates your complete lack of understanding. Have you ever heard of a sealed bid? How about the MERX system? You can give your "friend" whatever price you want, but unless the issue deals with national security, the lowest priced vendor wins. As for the Canada Health Act, it outlines specifically what the provinces can and cannot do. It does not tell the provinces how to spend any money as that is not in the Federal domain. It does state what services must be provided. If you think Health Canada has any influence over the budget for the Winnepeg General Hospital (I have no idea if Winnepeg has a hospital by that name) you are mistaken. As for believing that the Canadian electoral system does not work, you can always emmigrate to another more open, honest country where your hard earned dollars will not be wasted. Or you can do what I suggested and try to change the system from within. You could even go further and run for Federal Public Office. What an easy way to make $133000/year. Look at all these wonderful options you have that could possibly make a difference. Of course it is much easier sitting in the peanut gallery shouting out explitives whenever something happens that you do not agree with (or in your case - understand).

Sure, the "lowest priced vendor wins," but if every potential contract is bloated by greed, then said "lowest price" is irrelevant because it never gets offered. If the people managing the health care system are reaching into the public coffer to pay for said service, what is their motivation for finding a reasonable price for the job? To be efficient? It's not personally profitable to them and it's not their money.

You missed my point about our health care system. The Canada Health Act outlines the entire nature of our system, the PUBLIC nature of our system, which guarantees inefficiency. I KNOW that it doesn't tell the provinces where to spend the money.

There's this little thing called "free speech" in this country, and I don't have to "verify" the source of my impressions/opinions. If it's a lot easier for you to dismiss an idea because it's unpublished, then go ahead! There are a lot of truths that remain unrecognized by an ignorant/unreasonable/apathetic public.

Thanks for the advice, jackass. I have no faith in the process. I don't want to play the game of politics. I haven't been given any reason to think that any forward-thinking individual won't be ousted. I have every right to complain loudly even though it's probably just as ineffectual as voting.

Have you read Orwell's "Animal Farm?"
s4v4nn4

Good post!!

and more studies showing smoking is bad. Hey we all know smoking is bad and it has already been proven.

I just wanted to stick up for the useless studies showing that smoking is bad.

Yah, I knew smoking was bad for me and I still smoked. The threat of lung, throat or mouth cancer, the possibility of heart disease was not enough to fuel my motivation to quit. Apparently this wasn't enough motivation for the 40,000 Canadians that die every year from cigarette related illnesses either.

But one of the most recent studies has shown a frighteningly high risk of vulva cancer directly related to cigarette smoking and often affecting the 22-28 year old age bracket (my age bracket ) So that was enough for me to quit!! Vulva cancer doesn't kill you because they can usually remove all infected areas and leave you to live a fairly normal life. But seriously, I couldn't!! That's one part of my body I just can't live without! So yeah, I'm thankful for that study as it's given me and most of the female smokers I've told the incentive to quit!

I understand that smoking while you're on the Pill increases your chance of cervical cancer. That's pretty crappy.

s4v4nn4

Originally posted by s4v4nn4 Sure, the "lowest priced vendor wins," but if every potential contract is bloated by greed, then said "lowest price" is irrelevant because it never gets offered. If the people managing the health care system are reaching into the public coffer to pay for said service, what is their motivation for finding a reasonable price for the job? To be efficient? It's not personally profitable to them and it's not their money.

How about meeting their budget and not having to go looking for more money? How about keeping their jobs? There is a lot of motiviation to keep costs down for people working in the health care system. And how exactly is every contract "bloated by greed"?

You missed my point about our health care system. The Canada Health Act outlines the entire nature of our system, the PUBLIC nature of our system, which guarantees inefficiency. I KNOW that it doesn't tell the provinces where to spend the money.

I don't know that it guarantees inefficiency. There's certainly room for improvement, but I don't think the blame is as easily placed as you think. Public attitudes about healthcare, and abuse of our healthcare system are a major contributing factor as much as any government/administrative inefficiencies.

There's this little thing called "free speech" in this country, and I don't have to "verify" the source of my impressions/opinions. If it's a lot easier for you to dismiss an idea because it's unpublished, then go ahead! There are a lot of truths that remain unrecognized by an ignorant/unreasonable/apathetic public.

Truths can usually be proven and/or documented. Making statements without verifying their accuracy is not called "free speech", it is often called "libel" or "slander". What's wrong with someone asking you to provide some evidence?

Thanks for the advice, jackass. I have no faith in the process. I don't want to play the game of politics. I haven't been given any reason to think that any forward-thinking individual won't be ousted. I have every right to complain loudly even though it's probably just as ineffectual as voting. Have you read Orwell's "Animal Farm?" s4v4nn4

Relax, and please let's try and keep the insults out of the discussion.

Believe it or not, the government wants better accountability. Because there are a lot of people who have nothing better to do than scrutinize the government and the government would really like to shut those people up. The studies are a waste of money, but look at it this way, it's a job creation programme for the Ph. D.s

Government inefficiency lies in the mentality of those in power (management board in case you are wondering). I can assure you there are many people in the public sector pushing for change but unfortunately, only a few are heard. There are a few competent senior managers.

Another big problem is the following, the government can not be ran as a private corporation (each ministry is a corporation) simply because the public can not stomach it. If it were up to me, I would scrap the whole RFP process since it is a total sham. Have you ever read those documents? They are written mostly by consultants and guess what? they got partners. The RFP can be written in a way that it favours a certain company but you can not prove it in court.

Another thing that screws with procurement is litigations. The government is probably the only corporation that can be sued if they do not rotate vendors. As a private corporation, I can choose to give all my business to IBM and no one can bitch. But as the government, if I go with IBM too long, the other computer companies will sue (and win). What kind of crap is that? If I don't buy from you, maybe because I don't want your stuff? Better go back and sweeten the deal or better yet, make a better product.

Don't get me started on procurement... I want to pull out my meat tenderizer (made it in high school using CNC controlled mill and drill, aluminum) and go on a whacking rampage.

BTW, government is probably the only corporation willing to pay for leases that cost more than financing...

Originally posted by brash I'm not sure I would want government to have much more accountability. The way the media and uninformed members of the public like to crucify the government and civil service, they would never get anything done, and no one would want the jobs. Its this obsession with accountability, and fear of it that has governments spending thousands of dollars on studies just to prove they were right, because if they don't someone is going to be screaming for their head when they make a mistake. We spend so much time attacking the government, is it any wonder they are so inefficient? Its quite ironic when you think about it.

Originally posted by sdifox Believe it or not, the government wants better accountability. Because there are a lot of people who have nothing better to do than scrutinize the government and the government would really like to shut those people up. The studies are a waste of money, but look at it this way, it's a job creation programme for the Ph. D.s Government inefficiency lies in the mentality of those in power (management board in case you are wondering). I can assure you there are many people in the public sector pushing for change but unfortunately, only a few are heard. There are a few competent senior managers. Another big problem is the following, the government can not be ran as a private corporation (each ministry is a corporation) simply because the public can not stomach it. If it were up to me, I would scrap the whole RFP process since it is a total sham. Have you ever read those documents? They are written mostly by consultants and guess what? they got partners. The RFP can be written in a way that it favours a certain company but you can not prove it in court. Another thing that screws with procurement is litigations. The government is probably the only corporation that can be sued if they do not rotate vendors. As a private corporation, I can choose to give all my business to IBM and no one can bitch. But as the government, if I go with IBM too long, the other computer companies will sue (and win). What kind of crap is that? If I don't buy from you, maybe because I don't want your stuff? Better go back and sweeten the deal or better yet, make a better product. Don't get me started on procurement... I want to pull out my meat tenderizer (made it in high school using CNC controlled mill and drill, aluminum) and go on a whacking rampage.

Excellent post, SDI.

I have always found the more people you involve in a process the more incompetent it becomes. I have met many competent people in the public service and the government. Individually, many of them want greater efficiency and improved management. But collectively... well in my experience when it comes to committees the lowest common denominator tends to rule.

BTW, government is probably the only corporation willing to pay for leases that cost more than financing...

I'm not sure "willing" is the word I would have used...

Originally posted by brash How about meeting their budget and not having to go looking for more money? How about keeping their jobs? There is a lot of motiviation to keep costs down for people working in the health care system. And how exactly is every contract "bloated by greed"? Uh, in the example I gave. I was proposing that IF this was occuring, then it's another example of how tax dollars are being misspent. It's just one example...admittedly not the best one. But I think we've been over that. I really don't think that those are legitimate motivational factors, either. There isn't any personal stake involved. No one's losing their jobs. That's part of the problem. Who do you hold accountable in an entirely mismanaged system? I don't know that it guarantees inefficiency. There's certainly room for improvement, but I don't think the blame is as easily placed as you think. Public attitudes about healthcare, and abuse of our healthcare system are a major contributing factor as much as any government/administrative inefficiencies. Agreed. It's my understanding, however that there would be less abuse of the system if individuals were more responsible, (monetarily responsible in an immediate way), for the services they use. Public attitudes are a bi-product of the public system. Truths can usually be proven and/or documented. Making statements without verifying their accuracy is not called "free speech", it is often called "libel" or "slander". What's wrong with someone asking you to provide some evidence? I'm more interested in ideas/concepts than facts. Okay, I haven't gone in there with a tape recorder. I don't have "evidence." I never claimed to have any. I was presenting an idea. I tend to look at ideas that I'm presented with and decide if they're reasonable, or not. I found this one to be reasonable. Slander or libel is generally aimed at a specific individual. Relax, and please let's try and keep the insults out of the discussion.

Unregistered hit below the belt first. He/she just didn't swear. Sorry for that.

Y'know, I don't speak Politician, and I don't work for the government, nor am I going to anytime soon. That doesn't mean that I don't have an understanding of how Canadians are getting screwed. I'll never claim that I don't have much to learn...about EVERYTHING. But I'll not hear anything that's fueled by insult. I don't react well to being belittled as a result of sharing an IDEA.

Geez,
s4v4nn4

And I still don't know how to use this message board, obviously.
See? Lots to learn. Brash, how do you break up your quotes?

s4v4nn4

Don't get me started on procurement... I want to pull out my meat tenderizer (made it in high school using CNC controlled mill and drill, aluminum) and go on a whacking rampage.

Lol! That's a very funny picture!

Originally posted by s4v4nn4 Unregistered hit below the belt first. He/she just didn't swear. Sorry for that.

Cool, I hope you know I wasn't trying to beat up on you, you have a valid point. I don't know that he (?) was hitting below the belt, but I can understand your reacting. Its easy to forget how much of our "truths" is really interpretation and perspective.

Y'know, I don't speak Politician, and I don't work for the government, nor am I going to anytime soon. That doesn't mean that I don't have an understanding of how Canadians are getting screwed. I'll never claim that I don't have much to learn...about EVERYTHING. But I'll not hear anything that's fueled by insult. I don't react well to being belittled as a result of sharing an IDEA. Geez, s4v4nn4

I have been personal friends with a number of people in the public service (including MPs), the majority are a lot less self serving than your comments in this thread might suggest. To say we are "getting screwed" suggests there is someone doing the screwing. I don't think it is quite so easy to point a finger.

Remember that when you make sweeping statements like saying the contractors who bid for work and/or the government are greedy, you are painting a lot of people with a very broad brush. Some may react. Obviously Unregistered was reacting to your original comments, so from his/her perspective perhaps you started it.

Strong words elicit strong reactions. Let's try and move beyond it.

Direct some of those feelings you have into research and solutions, you may be surprised just how far a good idea can go when its presented in the right way...



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Regarding splitting up quotes, you do this by inserting the [quote] tag at the beginning and [/quote] tag at the end of each block of the text you want to quote. If you notice the tags appear at the beginning and end of the previous message when you click Reply with Quote Hope this helps.

THANKS.

s4v4nn4

ps- I didn't mean to imply that all contractors are crooked. I was speculating that if it occurs at all, then it's probably happening more than we know. That's all. No blanket statements here.